Sharing a few more reactions/thoughts I didn't address with Elissa in the video -
I loved the photo thing - she was talking about a popular stock photo choice of the search term "woman," a woman hiking alone on a mountain. She quoted an art director saying that the image feels like it's about power, freedom, and trusting oneself, then later she said this: "What I want is for someone to also describe a picture of a woman doing care as 'an image about power, about freedom, about trusting oneself.'" Yes!!
Loved this (p. 17): "I'd love to help more people value care and make the world a better place for caregivers, which must include giving them more dignity and support. I hope it speaks to the believers, the ones who, like me, have been stirred by their roles as caregivers but could use some help figuring it all out. And I hope it speaks to the skeptics and the haters, the people who just can't imagine that anything good could come out of care, as well as any partners and supervisors of caregivers who have the mistaken idea that time off to care for a dependent loved one is a vacation." Elissa, I was going to tell you this story but we didn't have time - once an acquaintance asked if I'd be interested in a job. I thought, oh, maybe part-time remote, something I can do alongside caring for my kids, cool thanks for thinking of me. Nope, upon further inquiry he meant full-time, on site. (And it was a job way below my qualifications as well.) It made me really upset. I'm WORKING. As a CAREGIVER. I'm not unemployed (or on vacation). Ugh!
I LOVED toward the end how she connected the loneliness crisis with the care crisis. I think that's so true. It's a societal prioritization of superficial things and a devaluing of love. Of relationship. "It's time to stop seeing caring for others as an obstacle to the good life and to start seeing it as an essential part of a meaningful one." (p. 21)
And this on interdependence toward the end - "Interdependence can feel suffocating--I know. Acknowledging how much we are needed by others, and how much we need others, goes against everything many of us have learned about the good life in the West. But eventually the gasping stops, the distance between the seemingly sublime and the seemingly mundane shrinks, and a slow-forming awareness settles in. We begin to see and feel the transformative power of care." (p. 23) This could be a description of new motherhood - it's SO MUCH at first. Our young children need us in a way that is, I think, really foreign to the way we generally think and live. But if you lean into it it's absolutely transforming - that's just the word for it. These paragraphs toward the end also reminded me of Leah Libresco Sargeant's upcoming book, The Dignity of Dependence which comes out this fall and hoooonestly might be our next book club read - can't wait for it.
I didn't get a chance to ask Elissa about this, but curious about anyone's thoughts (or yours, Elissa, if you'd like!) - she writes on p. 14 that caring for others is "often boring and depleting." Depleting, yes. Boring, I'm not so sure. I've found that caring for human beings is actually quite fascinating. Sure, it is boring at times, especially if you're more intellectually-oriented, as a lot of it is dealing with the most mundane realities of existence (eating, peeing/pooping, getting dressed, etc.). I wonder if we conceive of it as boring because... we've absorbed a message that it is? And maybe that because the work is invisible we don't get dopamine hits of applause for our achievements? It just kind of rubbed me the wrong way, because I think characterizing care work as boring is pretty aligned with the stereotypes of care workers as less than (they're doing care work because they're not that interesting or smart or ambitious). I think a lot of us fear "becoming boring" when we become mothers (I wrote about that and Elissa did say it too!), but I really think we need to push back on that. To me if you think I'm boring because I'm a caregiver that's a YOU problem! (Well, a culture problem really, but I just mean it's a perception problem.) I guess I was just surprised to see her plainly characterize care as boring when so much of her book illuminates the truth that care is actually interesting and complex and meaningful. Anyway, this was the only paragraph of the whole intro that I had a qualm with, for this reason and for others I won't go into right now but maybe in a future convo Elissa! :)
I’m curious to hear other people’s thoughts on it being boring as well. Having only one baby, there have been times (especially in the beginning when she wasn’t as interactive) that I was definitely bored and felt like my days drug on. I wonder if I did not work outside the home though how our daily routines/schedules would aid in making it feel less boring though? I hope some more people respond to this part of your comment!
Ah, Amber, I'm excited for this book and the conversations it will inspire! I'm barely online enough right now to get a full comment written, but wanted to drop a few partly-expressed ideas here (perhaps for future discussion? or a voice note exchange? since that seems to be all the messaging I'm getting around to these days).
- "Feeding this crisis is the fact that we are spending more time alone than ever before, and as a result care, whether giving or receiving, has become a less organic part of our lives." I am struck by the effort I see required to engage in acts or habits of care prior to having one's own children. If you aren't well-connected within (read: born into) a pre-existing community, whether that be a close-knit church, a well-established long-term neighborhood, or a large and interwoven family, it takes significant effort to learn how care might be provided, or who might need to receive care. If you live alone, or in a small nuclear family engaged primarily outside the home... if the home is not the hub of relational energy... if there is disconnect between generations... if recreation primarily arises through device to human instead of between human and human... how many opportunities will there REALLY be to witness where care might be provided? and to then learn how to value and emulate those who care well?
- "[...] there is a relationship between the loneliness crisis and the crisis in care, two social illnesses with the same root cause." A disease of social ligament. A disease of relationship.
- "Humans used to be surrounded by more people, family and nonfamily. They used to be more invested in community [...]" I was struck by the use of the word "invest" in context of relationship and since reading it I have been noticing it everywhere. "Invest in our children", "invest in our relationship", "invest in romantic connection". I might be unduly prone to look towards the industrial revolution as responsible for reframing our understanding of relationship, but it seems to me the emphasis on manufacturing and acquisition/production has become especially entrenched in modern relationship, especially as it applies to those relationships which necessitate caregiving. That choice word "invest" implies measurable return. What return can be measured on a caregiving relationship which will end in death? or which is deeply imbalanced in reciprocity across years? or which sustains the life of someone who will never have the capacity to provide any measurable return? I wonder what would happen if that word "invest" were replaced with "obligated to".
- "And, the biggest question of them all, why aren't men lining up around the block to get in on this very important job?" I'm interested in seeing how this thought is explored. I don't agree that men are avoiding or ignoring care work. I am inclined to believe men are experiencing a parallel devaluing of the forms of care that have generally been recognized as most meaningful and acclimated to the male psyche across centuries, and I'm also inclined to believe that the story of men not caring about care work (or not valuing it) is just that: a well-sold and oft-told story that fails to account for the reality of many men who are serving as the unseen foundation for many a human who would otherwise suffer or slip through the cracks of our social infrastructure.
There are more thoughts and more notes in my margins, but alas, no more time to write! You picked a good one, Amber.
I totally get it. Thanks for taking the time to share just a snippet of your thoughts! I'd love to voice memo - I'll DM you my Voxer! I'm so glad you're reading along.
Regarding men and care, there does seem to be energy here around all people getting/having to do care work, men just as much as women. I agree to some extent (we discussed this in the Zoom call) - men's lives are enriched as they do care work just as women's are. Yet I do agree with what you're saying, yes. It seems like maybe there's an underlying assumption here that men and women are pretty much the same beings, that they don't (generally) bring unique strengths, energy, etc. to the table. I don't personally believe that (but in my more liberal feminist days I definitely did).
Re: that specific line though - I actually wrote something a long time ago on my old blog called "the most important job in the world," where I said basically the same thing: if caring for children is the "most important job," why aren't more people wanting to do it? (I'd include women in that too, not just men.) I personally see people FLEEING from care work. My point was: let's just be honest: this work isn't truly valued, and the sentimental condescension doesn't help.
I feel like I’m likely the “baby” of the group since I only have one who is one (today is her bday😭)! I am looking forward to soaking this all in and particularly reading the perspectives of the more seasoned moms here.
There are a lot of things that I’m mulling over right now, but I think the one that struck me the most was the line on page 9 — “If there are children or dependent adults around, some adult has to care for them.” This is obvious AND having it written this way felt like a “DUH” moment for me. It’s been helpful in considering what my future as a mom with, God-willing, multiple kids could look like. Someone has to care for them, why do I feel “worth less” if it’s me!? I’m not!
I think I’ll also sit with the line on page 22, “When we view care as something we need to bear, we can only see what we have to lose” — that’s where I am at right now, wondering what it will mean to one day inevitably change things up with what work looks like for me because with more than 1 or 2 children, it will just HAVE to. I don’t want to see it solely through that lens of opportunity cost.
Ah Alexis, thanks for sharing so candidly and so glad you're here!
Someone needs to care for them - yes! You likely feel worthless because care isn't valued as meaningful work culturally. And then with the ideas of second-wave feminism in the water, I think many women feel that "staying home" (put in quotes because the binary is dumb and there are endless variations of what it can/could look like) is a failure somehow, not worthy of their time and effort. These are very real things you're contending with!
I love this line from further up on page 22: "What if we saw caring well as more than obligation? What if we also saw it as privilege, opportunity, and right?" This reminds me of a piece Emily Hancock wrote recently where she framed it like this: Women have a right to be with their babies. So it's not "women should stay home," it's women *should get to care for their own babies.* Such a different way to think about it that characterizes care as powerful and meaningful, not as something that holds us back.
I am so here for all of this, especially how caregiving is portrayed in our culture, especially motherhood. That it couldn’t possibly be an intellectually-satisfying role—which I absolutely disagree with, as a mother with grown kids. I recently started reading Elissa’s book and am excited to delve in deeper with you all. Amber, I’m grateful that we connected via a comment—thank you for subscribing to my newsletter. We seem kindred! 💕
Yes, I think that’s where you found me, based on me seeing your like on my comment on Sarah’s post and then a follow. 😌 I’m looking forward to more of your work!
Sharing a few more reactions/thoughts I didn't address with Elissa in the video -
I loved the photo thing - she was talking about a popular stock photo choice of the search term "woman," a woman hiking alone on a mountain. She quoted an art director saying that the image feels like it's about power, freedom, and trusting oneself, then later she said this: "What I want is for someone to also describe a picture of a woman doing care as 'an image about power, about freedom, about trusting oneself.'" Yes!!
Loved this (p. 17): "I'd love to help more people value care and make the world a better place for caregivers, which must include giving them more dignity and support. I hope it speaks to the believers, the ones who, like me, have been stirred by their roles as caregivers but could use some help figuring it all out. And I hope it speaks to the skeptics and the haters, the people who just can't imagine that anything good could come out of care, as well as any partners and supervisors of caregivers who have the mistaken idea that time off to care for a dependent loved one is a vacation." Elissa, I was going to tell you this story but we didn't have time - once an acquaintance asked if I'd be interested in a job. I thought, oh, maybe part-time remote, something I can do alongside caring for my kids, cool thanks for thinking of me. Nope, upon further inquiry he meant full-time, on site. (And it was a job way below my qualifications as well.) It made me really upset. I'm WORKING. As a CAREGIVER. I'm not unemployed (or on vacation). Ugh!
I LOVED toward the end how she connected the loneliness crisis with the care crisis. I think that's so true. It's a societal prioritization of superficial things and a devaluing of love. Of relationship. "It's time to stop seeing caring for others as an obstacle to the good life and to start seeing it as an essential part of a meaningful one." (p. 21)
And this on interdependence toward the end - "Interdependence can feel suffocating--I know. Acknowledging how much we are needed by others, and how much we need others, goes against everything many of us have learned about the good life in the West. But eventually the gasping stops, the distance between the seemingly sublime and the seemingly mundane shrinks, and a slow-forming awareness settles in. We begin to see and feel the transformative power of care." (p. 23) This could be a description of new motherhood - it's SO MUCH at first. Our young children need us in a way that is, I think, really foreign to the way we generally think and live. But if you lean into it it's absolutely transforming - that's just the word for it. These paragraphs toward the end also reminded me of Leah Libresco Sargeant's upcoming book, The Dignity of Dependence which comes out this fall and hoooonestly might be our next book club read - can't wait for it.
I didn't get a chance to ask Elissa about this, but curious about anyone's thoughts (or yours, Elissa, if you'd like!) - she writes on p. 14 that caring for others is "often boring and depleting." Depleting, yes. Boring, I'm not so sure. I've found that caring for human beings is actually quite fascinating. Sure, it is boring at times, especially if you're more intellectually-oriented, as a lot of it is dealing with the most mundane realities of existence (eating, peeing/pooping, getting dressed, etc.). I wonder if we conceive of it as boring because... we've absorbed a message that it is? And maybe that because the work is invisible we don't get dopamine hits of applause for our achievements? It just kind of rubbed me the wrong way, because I think characterizing care work as boring is pretty aligned with the stereotypes of care workers as less than (they're doing care work because they're not that interesting or smart or ambitious). I think a lot of us fear "becoming boring" when we become mothers (I wrote about that and Elissa did say it too!), but I really think we need to push back on that. To me if you think I'm boring because I'm a caregiver that's a YOU problem! (Well, a culture problem really, but I just mean it's a perception problem.) I guess I was just surprised to see her plainly characterize care as boring when so much of her book illuminates the truth that care is actually interesting and complex and meaningful. Anyway, this was the only paragraph of the whole intro that I had a qualm with, for this reason and for others I won't go into right now but maybe in a future convo Elissa! :)
I’m curious to hear other people’s thoughts on it being boring as well. Having only one baby, there have been times (especially in the beginning when she wasn’t as interactive) that I was definitely bored and felt like my days drug on. I wonder if I did not work outside the home though how our daily routines/schedules would aid in making it feel less boring though? I hope some more people respond to this part of your comment!
Ah, Amber, I'm excited for this book and the conversations it will inspire! I'm barely online enough right now to get a full comment written, but wanted to drop a few partly-expressed ideas here (perhaps for future discussion? or a voice note exchange? since that seems to be all the messaging I'm getting around to these days).
- "Feeding this crisis is the fact that we are spending more time alone than ever before, and as a result care, whether giving or receiving, has become a less organic part of our lives." I am struck by the effort I see required to engage in acts or habits of care prior to having one's own children. If you aren't well-connected within (read: born into) a pre-existing community, whether that be a close-knit church, a well-established long-term neighborhood, or a large and interwoven family, it takes significant effort to learn how care might be provided, or who might need to receive care. If you live alone, or in a small nuclear family engaged primarily outside the home... if the home is not the hub of relational energy... if there is disconnect between generations... if recreation primarily arises through device to human instead of between human and human... how many opportunities will there REALLY be to witness where care might be provided? and to then learn how to value and emulate those who care well?
- "[...] there is a relationship between the loneliness crisis and the crisis in care, two social illnesses with the same root cause." A disease of social ligament. A disease of relationship.
- "Humans used to be surrounded by more people, family and nonfamily. They used to be more invested in community [...]" I was struck by the use of the word "invest" in context of relationship and since reading it I have been noticing it everywhere. "Invest in our children", "invest in our relationship", "invest in romantic connection". I might be unduly prone to look towards the industrial revolution as responsible for reframing our understanding of relationship, but it seems to me the emphasis on manufacturing and acquisition/production has become especially entrenched in modern relationship, especially as it applies to those relationships which necessitate caregiving. That choice word "invest" implies measurable return. What return can be measured on a caregiving relationship which will end in death? or which is deeply imbalanced in reciprocity across years? or which sustains the life of someone who will never have the capacity to provide any measurable return? I wonder what would happen if that word "invest" were replaced with "obligated to".
- "And, the biggest question of them all, why aren't men lining up around the block to get in on this very important job?" I'm interested in seeing how this thought is explored. I don't agree that men are avoiding or ignoring care work. I am inclined to believe men are experiencing a parallel devaluing of the forms of care that have generally been recognized as most meaningful and acclimated to the male psyche across centuries, and I'm also inclined to believe that the story of men not caring about care work (or not valuing it) is just that: a well-sold and oft-told story that fails to account for the reality of many men who are serving as the unseen foundation for many a human who would otherwise suffer or slip through the cracks of our social infrastructure.
There are more thoughts and more notes in my margins, but alas, no more time to write! You picked a good one, Amber.
I totally get it. Thanks for taking the time to share just a snippet of your thoughts! I'd love to voice memo - I'll DM you my Voxer! I'm so glad you're reading along.
Regarding men and care, there does seem to be energy here around all people getting/having to do care work, men just as much as women. I agree to some extent (we discussed this in the Zoom call) - men's lives are enriched as they do care work just as women's are. Yet I do agree with what you're saying, yes. It seems like maybe there's an underlying assumption here that men and women are pretty much the same beings, that they don't (generally) bring unique strengths, energy, etc. to the table. I don't personally believe that (but in my more liberal feminist days I definitely did).
Re: that specific line though - I actually wrote something a long time ago on my old blog called "the most important job in the world," where I said basically the same thing: if caring for children is the "most important job," why aren't more people wanting to do it? (I'd include women in that too, not just men.) I personally see people FLEEING from care work. My point was: let's just be honest: this work isn't truly valued, and the sentimental condescension doesn't help.
I feel like I’m likely the “baby” of the group since I only have one who is one (today is her bday😭)! I am looking forward to soaking this all in and particularly reading the perspectives of the more seasoned moms here.
There are a lot of things that I’m mulling over right now, but I think the one that struck me the most was the line on page 9 — “If there are children or dependent adults around, some adult has to care for them.” This is obvious AND having it written this way felt like a “DUH” moment for me. It’s been helpful in considering what my future as a mom with, God-willing, multiple kids could look like. Someone has to care for them, why do I feel “worth less” if it’s me!? I’m not!
I think I’ll also sit with the line on page 22, “When we view care as something we need to bear, we can only see what we have to lose” — that’s where I am at right now, wondering what it will mean to one day inevitably change things up with what work looks like for me because with more than 1 or 2 children, it will just HAVE to. I don’t want to see it solely through that lens of opportunity cost.
Ah Alexis, thanks for sharing so candidly and so glad you're here!
Someone needs to care for them - yes! You likely feel worthless because care isn't valued as meaningful work culturally. And then with the ideas of second-wave feminism in the water, I think many women feel that "staying home" (put in quotes because the binary is dumb and there are endless variations of what it can/could look like) is a failure somehow, not worthy of their time and effort. These are very real things you're contending with!
I love this line from further up on page 22: "What if we saw caring well as more than obligation? What if we also saw it as privilege, opportunity, and right?" This reminds me of a piece Emily Hancock wrote recently where she framed it like this: Women have a right to be with their babies. So it's not "women should stay home," it's women *should get to care for their own babies.* Such a different way to think about it that characterizes care as powerful and meaningful, not as something that holds us back.
I love that reframe!
I am so here for all of this, especially how caregiving is portrayed in our culture, especially motherhood. That it couldn’t possibly be an intellectually-satisfying role—which I absolutely disagree with, as a mother with grown kids. I recently started reading Elissa’s book and am excited to delve in deeper with you all. Amber, I’m grateful that we connected via a comment—thank you for subscribing to my newsletter. We seem kindred! 💕
Yes, great to meet you! It was from Sarah's Substack, right? I'm excited to get to know you and am so glad you're reading along!!
Yes, I think that’s where you found me, based on me seeing your like on my comment on Sarah’s post and then a follow. 😌 I’m looking forward to more of your work!