“Anything that soothes but does not satiate us sets us up for addictive patterns. There is nothing as addictive as something that almost works.” My 4-year old is a committed thumb-sucker and this perfectly articulates my gut-feeling about the way I see her behavior. I just wish I could figure out what she is missing to truly satisfy that need.
I haven't joined the book club despite it sounding like a book that would interest me, because I only just found your blog last month and don't have time to catch up on the book. But it's been interesting reading the posts on it.
Relatedly, there will be a one-session video chat discussing Wendell Berry's Essay "The Pleasures of Eating" on September 4th, hosted by John Cuddeback of LifeCraft. I've participated in a similar discussion there before and although he and many of the other participants take a very Catholic approach, I felt comfortable as a pagan.
Well, Chapter Six was certainly a doozy. Definitely a journey into the past in terms of unpacking my own relationship to food and how it ended up being a replacement for both relationship and security (I remember, during some particularly tumultuous seasons, literally marking time with what food-based treats I could have at what time). While I feel like a lot of the associations have largely been healed, some of the behavior patterns still remain.
Alongside Nourished I am also reading Elizabeth Oldfield's book Fully Alive. As it happens, the chapter in Fully Alive on Gluttony coincided with reading Chapter Six in Nourished. This paragraph from Elizabeth's book, discussing her grandmother's addictive patterns around eating, really jumped out at me: "Nanny wasn't a bon viveur, she was absent. She wasn't savoring life's pleasures but self-medicating. For her generation then, and class even now, therapy was not really an option. She had no one to teach her to be present with her emotions, no easy access to mindfulness. She stuffed her traumas down with pork and chips and shop-bought cake, and who can blame her? Food is the cheapest drug. It works, at least in the short term, to overwrite hard feelings. It disconnected her, though. The cigarettes and the food and the TV built an impregnable wall around her, made it hard for others to reach her. I don't think, now, that I ever really met her, and I grieve it."
And then from Nourished: "What happens when food becomes 'love' and we pursue its comfort outside of detached from relationships? How can we make sense of emotional eating by understanding the transfer of attachment hunger onto food?"
I'd never considered non-relational consumption of food as a transfer of attachment hunger onto the act of filling the mouth and the stomach. Now I can't unsee it; it's like one thing had to click into place and now I'm seeing it everywhere, in people I love both past and present. What a powerful recognition!
And then there was the Pokémon story. I had to re-read that one several times, just to really absorb the impact of what was happening. "If you are not safe to me, if I cannot be sure you will stay, I will not allow myself to be fed by you." What a re-frame on children refusing food! And I'm sure that pattern must play out not only in big traumas but also in events or interactions that might seem utterly inconsequential to us as adults, since so many of us have moved on to seeing overarching patterns and focusing on end goals while children still see the world in such detailed minutiae.
I am totally an emotional eater myself (not crazy, but I've noticed it), and I also had never directly considered it as attachment hunger (vs. just not wanting to feel feelings).
Love your last point about how kids see the world (so purely and in the moment) vs. adults. The Pokemon story was insane. One thing I love about our intentional slow pace of life is the ability to explore things like this with my kids, to see what really be going on for them. There's no way I'd be able to do that if we were rushing around all the time.
Great thoughts - thanks for sharing. And I've never heard of that writer or that book, but I just looked her/it up! She looks wonderful. How's the book?
Oh, spot on with your insight about pacing. There’s nothing like a rush to make any chance of deep observation disappear.
I REALLY like Elizabeth Oldfield’s book. It definitely has my recommendation! (Not from the “I agree with every conclusion” standpoint, but from the “that was a fantastic & thought provoking conversation” standpoint...but I suppose that’s a given for any recommendation, really.)
Man I am so triggered by every post about this book. I can't even read all of your posts about it. I did pick up the other's first book - Rest Play Grow and it's had a huge impact on my mothering so hopefully I'll soon pick up Nourished but first I need to deal with my crap.
My 4 year old eats: oatmeal, eggs, specific types of muffins, dinosaurs, processed food, nuts, occasionally cheese and yogurt, and we just recently lost PBJ for no good reason that I can see. And that's it. That's been it since he started eating solids.
I paid for the Better Bites/Kids Eat in Color course and while I got a lot of good theory out of it, the behavior change around food required some straight up ridiculous nonsense that I'm never going to implement - let your kids play with food to get over the fear of it. First of all shut up, I don't respect the concept of fearing rice. Second of all, what in the world does it even mean to play with your food? I did it a few times - handed him a stalk of broccoli and told him to knock himself out. He dropped it and ran off to play with actual toys. Good, I don't want to have rotting food under the couch anyway. Fine, whatever. I set out ramekins of nuts, scrambled eggs, whatever when we have dinner, I make him his personal dinner, and lately I don't even bother trying to feed him because he won't eat unless it's in a wrapper.
Like, the admonishments about "When emotional cocercion is used through guilt or praise, it lowers the enjoyment of food, thwarts connection, and reduces curiosity and interest to try new food" like get fucked? At this point I would 100% happily coerce my kid into eating what I make for dinner and feel zero guilt about it. I don't overtly use guilt or praise anymore since it just doesn't work, but if it would get a vitamin into his body I would do it over and over and over again. Instead he gets mother's tightened face when she glances at his plate and a strangled statement about "clear your plates please."
Compare to his sister who has the exact opposite problem - does not stop eating.
I want to start documenting my cooking skills and my efforts to teach them both good eating skills so that I can have some small defense of myself when they start seeing their eating disorder therapists and blaming me for their issues.
Everyone says not to worry about it, that they eventually grow out of the pickiness. Not that I respect his pediatrician's opinion but he doesn't see the problem either, so fine. Fine. I'm done feeding him. Ice cream for lunch? Whatever. Piece of bread for lunch? Here, catch, fuck me for trying to nourish you.
Feeding them is the single worst part of mothering. I wasn't expecting that.
Hey there, I see you in your frustration and desperation. I’ve been there. It’s so hard. I can understand how this book may feel triggering for you right now, how it may feel out of reach and even judgy. I would encourage you though - especially since you mentioned you liked her other book - that it may actually be just what you need. I too sought advice from places like Kids Ear in Color, and nothing like that that I’ve seen touches the depth of Deborah’s work. Please feel free to jump in with us, as we are into the second half which is more practical in nature. Or not, if it doesn’t feel right.
I'm glad to know it's not like Kids Eat in Color. She has good information available, it helped me figure out how to integrate him into our meals, but I'm really fed up with the concept of "exposing" kids to food. It's a plain noodle for heaven's sake. I'm sure if they came individually wrapped he'd have no problem eating it.
Thanks for the encouragement on the book. I'm sure you'll be notified in a couple months that I'm commenting on these posts.
Reading Nourished has been incredibly helpful for understanding my children's behavior patterns around food... but I almost feel like it's been more helpful for understanding and unpacking MY relationship to food and feeding! Especially when it comes to how food and safety were unlinked for me as a child, and how these patterns may be playing out across generational lines.
What I actually meant was that you get the book and jump in reading and discussing where we’re at, and then you could join us for the Zoom call w Deborah in August. You’re of course free to read later and comment on the posts but reading and discussing alongside a group of mothers in real time may better serve you. Sending love.
I find the economy of parents paying for online courses on how to feed their kids one of the wildest aspects modern parenting. I was at a pregnancy expo and a woman was charging thousands of dollars just to tell you to feed your kid bone broth and marrow and I was like I can get this for free with a Google search?
Well that's an insane amount of money. Better Bites was ... I don't remember. Small enough to take the risk - less than $150. It was about as useless as all other advice on feeding kids.
Speaking of behaviorism, we just ate what my mom cooked and that was it. There was no making three different dinners because we didn’t like XYZ. She never intentionally made things we didn’t like, but it wasn’t always chicken nuggets, pizza, and PBJ. I had a wide range of preferences as a kid and I think it’s because my mom wasn’t a short-order cook. I do get lowkey triggered when I see moms on social media ask “what’s the big deal? Just make the sandwich.” Like no, y’all can eat what I cook and learn to eat things that are a wide variety. 🙃
I had every expectation to be that kind of mother but when he doesn't eat all day for two days in a row, I cave. Or if he finally got hungry enough to eat what I made but he gags and cries over it, I'm not sure that's the right thing either.
My mom forced food into my sister as a kid and my sister is picky as an adult. I liked food as a kid and I like food now as an adult.
I'm only 4 year into this, but I'm starting to realize that mothers have exactly zero influence on their kids at best. Kids are who they are and you just exist around them. At worst it's a negative influence when you, for instance, feed them incorrectly.
“Anything that soothes but does not satiate us sets us up for addictive patterns. There is nothing as addictive as something that almost works.” My 4-year old is a committed thumb-sucker and this perfectly articulates my gut-feeling about the way I see her behavior. I just wish I could figure out what she is missing to truly satisfy that need.
I haven't joined the book club despite it sounding like a book that would interest me, because I only just found your blog last month and don't have time to catch up on the book. But it's been interesting reading the posts on it.
Relatedly, there will be a one-session video chat discussing Wendell Berry's Essay "The Pleasures of Eating" on September 4th, hosted by John Cuddeback of LifeCraft. I've participated in a similar discussion there before and although he and many of the other participants take a very Catholic approach, I felt comfortable as a pagan.
https://life-craft.org/live-readings/
I also can never think about the concept of pleasure in eating without remembering this mirthful piece by Daniel Lavery.
https://www.thechatner.com/p/how-it-feels-to-eat-potato
Well, Chapter Six was certainly a doozy. Definitely a journey into the past in terms of unpacking my own relationship to food and how it ended up being a replacement for both relationship and security (I remember, during some particularly tumultuous seasons, literally marking time with what food-based treats I could have at what time). While I feel like a lot of the associations have largely been healed, some of the behavior patterns still remain.
Alongside Nourished I am also reading Elizabeth Oldfield's book Fully Alive. As it happens, the chapter in Fully Alive on Gluttony coincided with reading Chapter Six in Nourished. This paragraph from Elizabeth's book, discussing her grandmother's addictive patterns around eating, really jumped out at me: "Nanny wasn't a bon viveur, she was absent. She wasn't savoring life's pleasures but self-medicating. For her generation then, and class even now, therapy was not really an option. She had no one to teach her to be present with her emotions, no easy access to mindfulness. She stuffed her traumas down with pork and chips and shop-bought cake, and who can blame her? Food is the cheapest drug. It works, at least in the short term, to overwrite hard feelings. It disconnected her, though. The cigarettes and the food and the TV built an impregnable wall around her, made it hard for others to reach her. I don't think, now, that I ever really met her, and I grieve it."
And then from Nourished: "What happens when food becomes 'love' and we pursue its comfort outside of detached from relationships? How can we make sense of emotional eating by understanding the transfer of attachment hunger onto food?"
I'd never considered non-relational consumption of food as a transfer of attachment hunger onto the act of filling the mouth and the stomach. Now I can't unsee it; it's like one thing had to click into place and now I'm seeing it everywhere, in people I love both past and present. What a powerful recognition!
And then there was the Pokémon story. I had to re-read that one several times, just to really absorb the impact of what was happening. "If you are not safe to me, if I cannot be sure you will stay, I will not allow myself to be fed by you." What a re-frame on children refusing food! And I'm sure that pattern must play out not only in big traumas but also in events or interactions that might seem utterly inconsequential to us as adults, since so many of us have moved on to seeing overarching patterns and focusing on end goals while children still see the world in such detailed minutiae.
I am totally an emotional eater myself (not crazy, but I've noticed it), and I also had never directly considered it as attachment hunger (vs. just not wanting to feel feelings).
Love your last point about how kids see the world (so purely and in the moment) vs. adults. The Pokemon story was insane. One thing I love about our intentional slow pace of life is the ability to explore things like this with my kids, to see what really be going on for them. There's no way I'd be able to do that if we were rushing around all the time.
Great thoughts - thanks for sharing. And I've never heard of that writer or that book, but I just looked her/it up! She looks wonderful. How's the book?
Oh, spot on with your insight about pacing. There’s nothing like a rush to make any chance of deep observation disappear.
I REALLY like Elizabeth Oldfield’s book. It definitely has my recommendation! (Not from the “I agree with every conclusion” standpoint, but from the “that was a fantastic & thought provoking conversation” standpoint...but I suppose that’s a given for any recommendation, really.)
Man I am so triggered by every post about this book. I can't even read all of your posts about it. I did pick up the other's first book - Rest Play Grow and it's had a huge impact on my mothering so hopefully I'll soon pick up Nourished but first I need to deal with my crap.
My 4 year old eats: oatmeal, eggs, specific types of muffins, dinosaurs, processed food, nuts, occasionally cheese and yogurt, and we just recently lost PBJ for no good reason that I can see. And that's it. That's been it since he started eating solids.
I paid for the Better Bites/Kids Eat in Color course and while I got a lot of good theory out of it, the behavior change around food required some straight up ridiculous nonsense that I'm never going to implement - let your kids play with food to get over the fear of it. First of all shut up, I don't respect the concept of fearing rice. Second of all, what in the world does it even mean to play with your food? I did it a few times - handed him a stalk of broccoli and told him to knock himself out. He dropped it and ran off to play with actual toys. Good, I don't want to have rotting food under the couch anyway. Fine, whatever. I set out ramekins of nuts, scrambled eggs, whatever when we have dinner, I make him his personal dinner, and lately I don't even bother trying to feed him because he won't eat unless it's in a wrapper.
Like, the admonishments about "When emotional cocercion is used through guilt or praise, it lowers the enjoyment of food, thwarts connection, and reduces curiosity and interest to try new food" like get fucked? At this point I would 100% happily coerce my kid into eating what I make for dinner and feel zero guilt about it. I don't overtly use guilt or praise anymore since it just doesn't work, but if it would get a vitamin into his body I would do it over and over and over again. Instead he gets mother's tightened face when she glances at his plate and a strangled statement about "clear your plates please."
Compare to his sister who has the exact opposite problem - does not stop eating.
I want to start documenting my cooking skills and my efforts to teach them both good eating skills so that I can have some small defense of myself when they start seeing their eating disorder therapists and blaming me for their issues.
Everyone says not to worry about it, that they eventually grow out of the pickiness. Not that I respect his pediatrician's opinion but he doesn't see the problem either, so fine. Fine. I'm done feeding him. Ice cream for lunch? Whatever. Piece of bread for lunch? Here, catch, fuck me for trying to nourish you.
Feeding them is the single worst part of mothering. I wasn't expecting that.
Hey there, I see you in your frustration and desperation. I’ve been there. It’s so hard. I can understand how this book may feel triggering for you right now, how it may feel out of reach and even judgy. I would encourage you though - especially since you mentioned you liked her other book - that it may actually be just what you need. I too sought advice from places like Kids Ear in Color, and nothing like that that I’ve seen touches the depth of Deborah’s work. Please feel free to jump in with us, as we are into the second half which is more practical in nature. Or not, if it doesn’t feel right.
Again, I see you. Hang in there.
I'm glad to know it's not like Kids Eat in Color. She has good information available, it helped me figure out how to integrate him into our meals, but I'm really fed up with the concept of "exposing" kids to food. It's a plain noodle for heaven's sake. I'm sure if they came individually wrapped he'd have no problem eating it.
Thanks for the encouragement on the book. I'm sure you'll be notified in a couple months that I'm commenting on these posts.
Reading Nourished has been incredibly helpful for understanding my children's behavior patterns around food... but I almost feel like it's been more helpful for understanding and unpacking MY relationship to food and feeding! Especially when it comes to how food and safety were unlinked for me as a child, and how these patterns may be playing out across generational lines.
What I actually meant was that you get the book and jump in reading and discussing where we’re at, and then you could join us for the Zoom call w Deborah in August. You’re of course free to read later and comment on the posts but reading and discussing alongside a group of mothers in real time may better serve you. Sending love.
I find the economy of parents paying for online courses on how to feed their kids one of the wildest aspects modern parenting. I was at a pregnancy expo and a woman was charging thousands of dollars just to tell you to feed your kid bone broth and marrow and I was like I can get this for free with a Google search?
Well that's an insane amount of money. Better Bites was ... I don't remember. Small enough to take the risk - less than $150. It was about as useless as all other advice on feeding kids.
Speaking of behaviorism, we just ate what my mom cooked and that was it. There was no making three different dinners because we didn’t like XYZ. She never intentionally made things we didn’t like, but it wasn’t always chicken nuggets, pizza, and PBJ. I had a wide range of preferences as a kid and I think it’s because my mom wasn’t a short-order cook. I do get lowkey triggered when I see moms on social media ask “what’s the big deal? Just make the sandwich.” Like no, y’all can eat what I cook and learn to eat things that are a wide variety. 🙃
I had every expectation to be that kind of mother but when he doesn't eat all day for two days in a row, I cave. Or if he finally got hungry enough to eat what I made but he gags and cries over it, I'm not sure that's the right thing either.
My mom forced food into my sister as a kid and my sister is picky as an adult. I liked food as a kid and I like food now as an adult.
I'm only 4 year into this, but I'm starting to realize that mothers have exactly zero influence on their kids at best. Kids are who they are and you just exist around them. At worst it's a negative influence when you, for instance, feed them incorrectly.
Trust me, I’m not any kind of mother.